Note: Any time Vatican is mentioned it refers to Vatican Council II.
Q. What images do you remember concerning the church as a child, the images that surrounded it?
A. It was mystical. It was very powerful. It was kind of like fearsome.
Q. What do you mean by fearsome? It does not seem to have a good overtone.
A. The church was the judge of good and evil. It stood for the power of the soul. There was always the element of being judged for what you did.
Q. Did the church provide some sort of safe haven?
A. The church was always a safe haven if you were doing what you were supposed to do.
Q. And if you disagreed with it?
A. Then it was not where you belonged.
Q. Could you describe you secondary education?
A. I went to an all girls Catholic high school. Actually it was a good experience. We were taught by the sisters. I liked learning. I liked school. I was a good student. There was the certain correlation that if you did what the sisters told you, then they would like you.
Q. Intellectually, what about different view points, were you allowed to explore other issues?
A. The fact was that I would not think about other issues. I lived in an environment where creative thought was not encouraged. Deviation from the norm was not recognized, or rewarded, whether it was at home, school, or church. Life was pretty rigid. Your well-being totally corresponded on how you performed to the norm, and I never thought about any different. I was a perfect conformist.
Q. What made you want to become a nun, a member of the clergy?
A. Actually, I wasnt a member of the clergy. A nun is not considered a clerical person. A nun is pure and simply by canon law another form of the laity. The fact was that I went to an all girl Catholic school. I was taught by all religious sisters from various communities. I liked them. They were good to me. I was a good student. I got a lot of encouragement and a lot of recognition from them. I was focused on doing what was right. In my mind I was giving my life to god, and it seemed like a challenging thing to do. But at the time it seemed much better than living the normal life that I was exposed to.
Q. Would you be able to describe the training you went through to become a nun? A. Well, the early years of religious life are formative. You spend a great deal of it secluded from the normal run of society. Generally we lived in a remote location, apart from the general traffic of a neighborhood. The intention was to develop a spiritual life. That was through programs that related to the scripture, and the liturgy. During that time I was getting my college education. So during the first couple of years the things I was doing were of a religious, theological nature. Following that, I moved to a college campus, where I prepared myself to become a teacher. So in a sense it was an academic environment. It was a spiritual environment. Once again there were a lot of rules and how happy you were depended on how well you adjusted.
Q. After you completed your training what were your specific responsibilities, the duties you had?
A. I did everything from scrubbing kitchens, scrubbing bathrooms, being a cook. We lived in a community and we had responsibilities to maintain the community. I spent a great deal of my career catching mice in kitchens, doing shopping, doing cleaning, and transporting old people. There were a lot of house chores built in for my being to be a part of that community.
Q. Did you teach at all?
A. When I finished my college education I was assigned as a teacher in the junior high of a Catholic Parochial school. I worked as part of a community with a large number of other sisters, all of whom were all part of that same faculty.
Q. Were you moved to different parishes?
A. When I was at college I did various jobs at local parishes. They related to religious education. I ran summer camps. I did all types of teaching including the proverbial CCD programs and bible schools. During the summer months I did two week shifts at each different parishes.
Q. Looking back now, do you agree with the actions the church hierarchy of that time?
A. The fact is that while I was growing up in the church and also as a young person in religious community it never occurred to me to question anybody. Questioning was not an acceptable position. You accepted unconditionally the Pope, you accepted unconditionally the Superior of the house. We lived in a very hierarchical environment. Form the Pope to the bishop to the superior of the house, they practically had the power over life and death. If there issues about a theological nature that did not make sense you simply had faith. If there were practices that were more of a part of the structure and operation of the church you did not have much influence. They were not decisions that you were asked to participate in.
Q. What were your reasons for leaving the church?
A. I wasnt happy. The fact of the matter is that a long way before you were born there was a thing called Vatican Council II. Pope John XXIII opened up the windows of the church to the world. At that time just about every structure and statement of belief in the church was being questioned, or redefined in some way. It dramatically impacted the religious community. It was a type of revelation. Institutions that had not seen change for hundred of years were making radical changes overnight. It was an incredibly painful time for many people. It did help us redefine what we believed. The difference was that growing up as a child there was never the idea of questioning what was told to me. A young religious in the midst of a Vatican transformation, it provided me an opportunity to decide whether I was in the place I wanted to be, and if I was truly living out Gods plan for me. Religious communities changed dramatically as the so the church in general. This was the time when the Church went from Latin to English. The altars were turned around for mass, the priest would face the public. People were given a chance to participate more actively in the liturgy. It was radical time for the church in the 60s. The church pretty much mirrored the rest of society. We were in tremendous flux. Religious community changed in ways people would never had dreamed. The habits went away. All the restrictions on living a very removed existence were taken away. One was free to choose a lot of choices that they did not have in the past. It was perceived as good. It was meant to be good. The Vatican Council unveiled the fact that every person has value and that every person has dignity. One was free to choose within their own conscience. Their was a tremendous power shift from individual to institution. I am a very thoughtful person. I like being involved in the world of concept and ideas. It was a time that really had me crazy. For the first time in my life I was standing up for myself with thought about things I had never previously challenged. As all of my associates we had the same problem, we all were living under the same roof and everybody was different things. All of us were going through an adolescence that we were not able to go through. It was a bit of a crazy house. We had people doing things that they should have done when they sixteen years old, now they doing them at thirty only because they did not have the opportunity or freedom to let themselves choose. Sometimes the choices were not that great. I was lonely there. I found that I really did not want to be part of this sorority. There were so many opinions and so little ground about what we were about that I was being to recognize a God in my life who was loving and much more caring for me as a person. I finally decided that this was not the place that I wanted to spend the rest of my life. I was too confused about who the God person was and did not know what the formal body of belief was about. I was a teacher and was expected to proclaim many things about the Churchs creed. IN many instances I was not sure what I felt about it myself. It was not too difficult to find out that this was not a place for me. The greater challenge in my life was to make that break and start again. It was like having a divorce. You were not perceived as a positive team member. It was with a great deal of regret and anxiety that I moved on.
Q. One of the factors that you said for your leaving is that you did not have a voice in decisions. Is that still true about nuns today, or more precisely women who are involved with the church?
A. I would restate that I did not leave religious community because of a lack of voice. It was part of the environment and an accepted part of the environment. The fact of the matter is that after Vatican II is was harder to justify the actions some of the customs and practices of the church that were part of a male hierarchy, where often women were looked upon as helpers and handmaids. Women were not appreciated for the depth of their spirituality and their contributions to religious thought. Certainly there was a lot to be criticized about how the post-Vatican Church dealt with any minority in the church community.
Q. With the present day structure of the church do you think women could be ordained priests?
A. There is no reason why women could not function in the same kind of priestly function as a male. The fact is that in many instances women may have more sensitivity towards the needs of the people than the clergy have. I know many women who are Anglican priest and I have listened to them preached, seen them celebrate their liturgy. I do not think at this time there is no issue about what should be. The church has to gain insight and recognize the talents that they have been repressing.
Q. You stated earlier that the instability of the church in the 60s reflected the political environment of the time. In todays society would you consider the church as a political figure? Does it still have the influence it had in prior years?
A. The church will always be a political presence in society. It is an institution that will always be able to influence millions of peoples minds, their voting power, and their general attitudes ands beliefs about religious and social issues Q. Today some of the major issues the church has to deal with is abortion and homosexuality....
A. ...and capital punishment. I think, I dislike the way the hierarchical church treats women, treats the laity in general. I do believe that there are some tenets of faith that have truth and I guess the right to life is an issue which transcends religion and is at the heart of moral values. For whom is a value human? Is it the mother or is it the unborn. Recently I was with a women who was seeking an abortion and I was trying very hard to understand why I was feeling so agitated about it. I finally came to the realization for the first time in my life that abortion was wrong and that truly there was an issue about the rights of the unborn. I was personally willing to adopt the baby. This was a powerful statement for me because up to this point I was Pro-choice person. I hope that as I am growing older I would have liked to have gained some type of wisdom. I think we should accept homosexuals for who they are. A society which murders criminals for murdering their victims and allows abortion on demand has lost respect for the value of life.
Q. Was the church hypocritical in the way it treated abortion?
A. Certainly it did. It was stupid. If a woman was going to have any complications with the birth of their child they were expected to ultimately sacrifice their being for the child. It was naive and stupid. It was not in good judgment. They were choices that were made on an individual basis, and not under the jurisdiction of law or church hierarchy.
Q. In reality if a girl became pregnant and decided to follow church doctrine and have the baby, wouldnt she be shunned by the church community?
A. She would be viewed as a sinful person. Sex is a very nasty word in the former days of the church and I am not sure if it still isnt. Anyone who commits a violation of what would be considered a sexual impropriety would be looked upon as someone who has sinned. For good or ill we have practices just ignoring people like that. The church for all of its forgiveness can be very unforgiving. If the church is the people, and truly is a community of believers , and they been indoctrinated that forgiveness is not enough, then people have to be held responsible for how they treat others.
Q. Presently, and back in former years, did the church struggle over the issue homosexuality within its rank. Was it an issue which was ignored or was it treated internally in a quiet manner?
A. The church would prefer to be totally blind to the issue of homosexuality. The fact of the matter is if people did not identify themselves as homosexual the church would not bother with them. I think the church gets confused about homosexuality primarily because it has a celibate priesthood. As long as it has a celibate priesthood where human desire and passion does not have a way of expressing themselves. As such, things happen. We all know that our history is one of covering up.
Q. Abuse of children in the church, especially sexual abuse is a prominent issue. Did the church take measures for safeguarding against these situations? If the church found out that abuse had occurred would they try to rehabilitate that person?
A. Sexually abuse within the priesthood or religious community was not an issue that merited any articulation. If there were secrets, there were secrets. I do not know if any such persons were counseled into recovery. It is fair to say that it is not the church but the individuals who come with a need of their own. By virtue of their association with the church and also because the church is so prone to probably propagate such abuses considering the celibate state it takes a tremendous amount of responsibility for how it responses or does not responds to the situation.
Q. One of the conditions about the priesthood is the vow of celibacy. Do you think that at any time the priesthood will be allowed to marry?
A. I think it is an economic issue. As long as there is a need for the church to depend upon the contributions of its people to survive the church will not increase its responsibility by supporting the families of clergy. Should it happen? It would seem very normal. I think it is more of a political issue than a spiritual issue.
Q. How does the church view other denominations? Do they view them innately having a fault that will not let them into heaven, not achieving salvation?
A. I think Vatican II made it extremely clear that Christ came to save all people and regardless of religious beliefs that there is one God who oversees us all. We may not act on this and have our own prejudices within the Catholic community but there is no question at least form a theological question that God is here for all and that there is a forgiving God. We all can forgive and begin anew, something that has not been an actively practiced virtue within the organization.
Q. Will the Roman Catholic church be able to reform itself and retain its natural integrity? It seems that if certain practices which defines the church as Catholic were reformed the church would resemble Protestantism.
A. I assume you are mentioning the ecumenical movement within the church. The striving of all of Christianity to a oneness. I think that is what life is all about, learning to achieve unity and harmony. It may not occur in our lifetime but there is the possibility of being one church. Over the years the church has done tremendous amount of self-reformation. I think it is continues to marked by different movements and schisms that mark it was trying to act out its Christianity. One of the great insights that came from the Second Vatican Council was that as much as we like to portray ourselves as the one true church of Christ there are many ways to define exactly what is the church of Christ. Is it the members of the Roman Catholic Church that shows up on Sunday? Is it the many people of various Christian beliefs who feel Jesus is the lord and that he represents the unifying of society.
Q. Could you describe your current life.
A. I left the religious community in 1976. By all criterion I am an old woman. Since 1976 I have been many places and have done many things. I started my adult life at age thirty three without a dime in my pocket. I have found that God is good, God is everywhere. People portray a tremendous amount of generosity when you approach them in a way that they feel are honest and loving. I moved from Virginia to New York in 1976. I have in different capacities, even for the church as an adult education program person, then at a money center bank as a training consultant. Eventually I became part of the overall administration and management. I probably make more money than anyone in my family. I work alone. I have not married. I had two significant relations, which have really not continued. I think today I am certainty wiser, more spiritual, and more believing in God in a personal life. I think what is important is that the church is not an organization or a place where people meet. It should be a place where people feel that they are loved. Since the years of my leaving the religious community, I have been in and out of various denominations. I have friends who are very Jewish, friends who if can be very gay, and friends who belong to Protestant denominations. They are loving people who have as much spirituality as I have. Belonging to an institution does not mark one as Gods own. Trying to live a good life and believing that you need someone greater than yourself to help you through the daily trials is what life is about for me. About nine years ago I joined Alcoholic Anonymous and believe very strongly in their program of recovery. It is probably more of a church experience to me than any of my Sunday morning in Catholic institutions celebrating the mass. The twelve steps and the twelve traditions Alcoholics Anonymous provide for an actual program of recovery. They illustrate in a simple way how someone can live and recognize a higher power, and how one can become responsible for their self and others in the community. I would like to say that probably the twelve steps of recovery are a pretty encompassing creed about what Gods presence in the world is about.
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